Friday, August 12, 2016

Rendering issues


What's up? I'd really like your opinion on this matter.
Yes, I know, this year has been slow, and there's a good reason to it, so I thought I could fill you all in.

The thing is that this year since I upgraded some of my hardware, I decided to try to up a level of quality, so I upgraded my software too and find myself in a shitstorm complex situation of trial and errors.

The thinkg is this: The main problem with the comics is the rendering time (render is how long it takes to create a final image with the 3D software, if you don't know).

There are 3 render methods: basic, 3delight, and Iray.

Basic is what I used on my early comics, takes 10 seconds, and looks like this:

For the last few years I've been using 3Delight, wich I'm familiar with, takes 2-3 minutes, and looks like this:


But this year I decided to try my luck with Iray... And it look awesome! To make a "decent" render it takes from 5 to 15 minutes, and looks like this:


I do mean, looks awesome.



Now, considering That my comics use around 400-800 renders (plus trial and errors, re-renders) and there's the added photoshop time per image... Rendring in Iray takes sooooo muuuuch timeeeee to get things done!
And in indoors, or under shadows/low light, all I get are grainy images!



There's also the problem that every render method behaves different, requires a whole new setup and lightning work... so, I've been re-learning how to render basically just to use Iray.


So, to summarize it - I've been using a render method that crawls and I can't render indoors right so far, I'm kinda stuck. I've spent quite a lot of time and months just trying different ways to render and re-learning.

But there's good news! I should have something soon, and I got half done the Halloween comic part 2.

And since you reached this part of the post... here's a quick caption for you!

What? you want more? You want me to spoil what the next comic is about?
Hmpph... Let me think... All I can tell you is that:
- is medieval themed
- involves a Champion from Ingnam
- involved drinking plenty of fluids and meeting a wide variety of colorful characters

51 comments:

  1. gracias por compartinos un poco de como es que realizas esos fabulosos comics. Estaré al pendiene de algún nuevo lanzamiento, el cual espero de verdad sea muy pronto.

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    1. De nada! Yo tambien disfruto de la participacion de ustedes

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  2. Hey there, its Sitri!

    Good to hear something from you, I was thinking you gone for a vacation to Bimboville and dont wanted to come back.

    Honestly I think the Iray pictures look amazing and I really would love to see more comics made with it. But considering the rendering and post work time I think you should do pinups and shorter few page comics with it and keep to 3Delight for longer works.

    I know I might sound selfish, but I like a more regular comic upload maybe one in every 2-3 months.
    I belive with Iray that could be 2 comics per year since you have a life beyoud comic making. So I think you need to decide between quality and quantity.



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    1. Hi my friend!
      You have a point. Right now, I'm working in an Iray comic, but I don't think I'll go for another one. Most of the comments point that I should stick with 3Delight, but... Once you know how good it looks, it's sooo hard to go a step back!
      Plus, Genesis 3 just won't render in 3Delight, and I love that model and its morphs.

      How are your comics going?

      Delete
    2. I understand wery well, Its hard to give up something really good as Iray.

      I will have a new comic this week if nothing bad happens. I send you a mail when its ready.

      Delete
    3. Great!!! I'm looking forward to it

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  3. I mean the comics ARE free I don't see why you would use a higher render for a free comic other than wanting it to be better

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    1. Well... It's my hobby.
      I need this kind of escape. I must be a frustrated artist or film maker?

      Thankfully I'm in a position I don't need to make money out of them, and I don't want to be stressed with deadlines or piracy control.

      Delete
  4. I can't see the problem with the Iray images, really. They look much better and the grainy stuff is barely noticeable.

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    1. With blank/no backround renders it's not that bad, but in a scene, with roof, walls, lights bouncing, lots of objects... it's a grainy mess sometimes. Close-ups are particularly grainy.

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  5. Algunas tarjetas manejan una forma particular de hacer las sombras, tu software debería tener alguna opcion de eso, algo como "Shader Software" o "Shader engine".

    Experimenta con los niveles de memoria que le asignas al proceso de render, a veces hay fugas de memoria que provocan esos problemas con las sombras.

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    1. Gracias por el dato!
      No encuentro fugas o errores de shading en los logs del render.
      Realmente el problema es que si dejo el render funcionando 1 hora, la imagen sale bien, pero si tengo que esperar una hora por cada render... el proximo comic estara listo en el 2067!

      Delete
  6. Youre new tg comics coming!! I total in. Hell good lg

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  7. They do look amazing, but I undestand the proccess can be exhausting.
    Im fine with the 3delight option.
    Its so nice to see a bit of the making proccess of your art, like in your bonus shit, it's always welcome

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    1. My pleasure!
      I too love to see how things are done, and after a comic is done, there's just so much unused renders that it's a shame to waste

      Delete
  8. I would never stop you from using Quality render, but i have to agree to sitri and some others, your Quality is a mixture of atmosphere delivering renders etc. and good Story ideas, (you place your gifts for your Readers very well) ...so for this style you actually don't need a high realisitc render, but if you want to change to that Kind of Comics, there would be much tooo much work coming at you, and i would feel ashamed, getting such a Comic with a size like jinxxed for free oO... but to repeat the Initial argument, your style of Story telling does not Need realistic render. My Opinion.

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    1. Thanks a lot!
      That was very nice to hear. Sometimes image quality shadows storytelling or fun plots.
      You really put a smile on my face!

      Delete
  9. hi, love your comics. Is it possible to use both rendering programs? perhaps use the program you are more comfortable with for the bulk of the comic and the higher quality render when it suits you. Maybe use the higher quality for several pages at the beginning of each chapter, or at specific plot points such as the transformation. idk if that's possible to mix and match, but its just an idea if it is. Most importantly, I think, is to not stress your self out too much. thanks for the great comics.

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    1. It's possible, yes, but it's actually more work: all the materials (character skins, clothes color and textures) render different in every method.
      For example, a plain cloth grey shirt in method 2 looks like a plastic grey bag with weird shadows in method 3. Every single material must be changed manually!

      But thanks for the idea! It was a good idea, I tried it out.

      Delete
  10. Whatever makes you happy, in all honesty I don't mind your slowness at all. If you're into learning all about a new rendering method, I support that totally. Happy to wait, your stuff is always great (even when it's not to my personal taste).

    If you're frustrated and you just want to push out content, I won't complain! :P

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    1. You're right, I should check the cancelled comics to see which one is more close to be completed and release it

      Delete
  11. VIP! Big fan here!

    I feel your pain! I've been attempting my own hand at 3D comics myself and in doing so have spent the last 8 months learning and tinkering with Nvidia's Iray. I too struggle with graininess in *some* of my images. Some of my renders are crystal clear while others will have that static (mainly around dark spots / shadows). From what I can tell it has to do with the amount of light in the scene that makes it into the camera. Personally, I fully flood my scenes with light, I go Hollywood with it and throw spot lights all over the place! I have a single room scene right now with 4 people in it that I'm working on and I have 1 distant light, 6 spot lights and some other point lights / emmissive textures. I also cut out the artificial scene lighting under render settings so it's only my lights I have to account for. Also, get a feel for lumens! I'm still tweaking this but it seems a good ball park for most spotlights is the 100k-500k lumens, a tad bit larger than the 1.5k default value.

    I got a lot I can say about Iray but this text-box is kinda small! If you ever want to chat / exchange tips with about it let me know!

    Lord Freeze

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    1. Hey there Lord
      I've been trying with that, only having problems with colors changing or areas being burn. My real problem is keeping it all under 5 mins, and I know I'm asking a bit too much with my specs.

      Thank for offering your help/expertise
      We'll talk on DA soon!

      Delete
  12. Basic looks good enough. The higher quality ones look too much like an attempt to be more realistic in my opinion. I prefer the more cartoon-like feel of the basic one

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    1. Basic has an issue too, some times color are rendered all messed up. Nothing is 100% free of issues, it seems

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  13. I actually like the middle one best, its a bit darker but looks better to me.

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  14. Any thing involving pregnancy?!?! :)

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    1. Pregnancy looks so awesome with Iray, too. You'll see!

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  15. The renders look great, if you want to step forward and try the new programing, I support it.

    If you want to stick with the older style, I will support that too.

    If you are just explaining why it's taking longer than usual, hey it's all good.

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  16. I-Ray is awesome. For my comics I've been using the Poser version, but it takes forever and leaves graininess, so yeah, I still use Firefly for my comics, and Reality/Poser11 for my short stories and individual images. Point is, I think your comics are great with or without that extra I-Ray zing, and you should do what makes you happiest. If it's quality, then Ray away! Otherwise, I think the recent non-Iray stuff still looks great!

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    1. Yeah it is, it's like tasting something with sugar for the first time. You just cant go back that easy to the old stuff!

      Delete
  17. Wooow, lots, LOTS of feedback.
    Really appreciated! I love this sense of community.

    I'm starting to think I'll stay with method 2 (3Delight) once I finish the comic I'm making with Method 3 (Iray)

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  18. I actually feel that both "Basic" and "3Delight" look *better* than IRay renders, for this particular application.

    Allow me to explain; comics should not shoot for 'photo-realism.' Comics strengths lie in simpler graphics and vibrant colors. In the examples you provided above, the IRay renders certainly look more realistic, but the colors appear washed out in comparison to both Basic and 3Delight. I think the 'less-realistic' renders lend themselves better to a comic panel than IRay.

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    1. Looking back at it, you're right, they do look more comic-like.
      A point very well made, I must admit! Thanks

      Delete
  19. Hey, I found this little trick in the interwebs. It certainly helped me a lot!
    1. Increase the picture of your render, like go crazy at it, make it double the size you want it to have! (for example: from 1000x1000 to 2000x2000)
    2. Limit the render time to about 300 (5minutes)
    3. Let it go... i mean, render
    4. After it is finished, sample it down in half.
    5. Profit :)

    As for the graininess... I can certainly live with it, The lights are too good (I love to make a sun sky, and then put the camera as "anchor" for the sun)

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    1. Thanks for the tip!
      I know that trick, it's called "manual oversampling" or something like that,
      I'm rendering 3000x1688 right now, scaling it to 1600x900 afterwards.

      I too find that "Sun- sky" give the nicest results, by far! (and faster ones also) sadly it's no good indoors

      Delete
  20. Forgot to add, you can set the Render Time under:
    Render Settings --> Progressive Rendering --> Max Time

    After 5 minutes you have a picture like that:
    http://imgur.com/a/TBjgK (nsfw)

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    1. Just tried it, but image looks the same.
      Actually, I was on a phone call during a second render and it stayed rendering for 17 minutes, looking way better

      Delete
  21. Hello Vip! So, what is your VGA currently? I did some research and found out that iRay demands a lot of VGA RAM, so, if you have a card with low ram (1Gb ~ 2Gb) even simpler scenes will revert to CPU render, that takes A LOT more time to complete. If you have something less, I suggest you making a campaign to get a Titan X (Which has 12 Gb!), or try to get a GTX 980 with 4 Gb, and pay attention to scene size to keep it under that 4Gb...

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    1. I run an i5 with 8GB ram and a GTX 960 4Gb.
      I'm not doing an upgrade anytime soon, and in the country I'm living right now, years of backwars policies had made Video Cards impossibly expensive and there's very little variety in the market, and it's mostly low end cards.
      To give you an idea, a GTX 980 4Gb is around 1 1/2 basic salaries!

      Delete
  22. Honestly I don't mind the basic level. I understand that it looks awesome and as a 3D artist you love that awesomeness.

    I'd say you could render basic the parts of the comic that don't have much art and render the next level for the more beautiful ones.

    Or maybe do what you did with Omega Planet, release a LQ version and then a HQ when you finish up rendering in HQ.

    In the end, we will love the comic. I know it.

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    1. Thanks a lot for the support and the kind words!
      It's just like you say, basic render just don't do it for me anymore.
      And Omega Planet... the HD version was released 5 years later! So I should go for a movie next annyversary, but so far both Megan Fox and Sofia Vergara are asking too much money.

      Delete
  23. Can't wait for Halloween 2 i loved the first one it will be the continuation from the first one? or a new history

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    1. So far I have 2 scripts, one is a continuation, the other one is a new story. So far I'm more into making a whole new story with the same evil pumpkin

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  24. I love men changed in so sexy bitch slaves!!! Can wait from this ! Changed in a new evil personality haha lg

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    1. Well... "evil" is not far from what I'm about to upload...

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  25. I like that you come up with all sorts of stuff in your comics, no matter the render method. I'll be looking forward to the next.

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    1. Thanks! Next one has a bit of everything

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  26. When will the next comic come? I am waiting like everyday ;)

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    1. Tic-tac, tic-tac... Maybe by this weekend

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